Home Scoring and other IT questions

Network delays and BBO time stamps

It is usual to use the BBO table history to deal with issuses like slow play, unfinished boards, hesitation, break in tempo etc. The BBO time stamp on the table history events records the time the information was received at the server, which is some ms after the player clicked on the bid or card. This delay (latency) can vary enormously with time (there is software which can give you a real time graph of network latency). Is it therefore safe to assume that an apparent hesitation or break in tempo is necessarly due to the player?

Comments

  • When playing online, there are many things which can cause an apparent break in tempo from the dog barking to getting a hair in your optical mouse to having to get up to take a leak while the previous player has decided to stop to think to having a sneezing fit to ... etc etc.

  • Interesting you should say so. I know of a recent case where there was a 'significant' delay (8 sec with the average being 2-4) in playing a card owing to a mouse disappearing. The opponent (declarer) claimed their inference from the change in tempo caused a different card to be played, resulting in the loss of a trick. After a lot of soul searching by club TDs, repeated readings of the laws, arguments about 'BIT', permitted reasons (i.e. bridge related), opponents drawing inferences, awareness of possible damage to the other side and consultation at various levels of the bridge hierarchy, the final advice was 'If inference from an opponent's break in tempo when there was no bridge related reason, causes a player to play diferently and sustain a damage, the score should be adjusted to what the outcome would have been. without the break in tempo, PROVIDED the opponent COULD (NOT WOULD) have been aware of potential damage'. This is fine in face to face bridge but I was wondering about the implications online. Do you have to send a chat to the table in advance everytime you need to sneeze, cough, go to the loo, spill your drink, drop your mouse...? I think some guidance to players might be useful.

  • I have always taken the attitude that there are a myriad of reasons for an online interruption, and I remind people of that - the consequence being that drawing any inference is a much riskier business.

    Given they known that, they can take the risk if they want to.

  • I agree that it is a bad idea to draw conclusions based on tempo changes online. Anything can happen... iPad gets dropped, wireless mouse battery fails etc... however, when a tempo change does take place and an inference is drawn that turns out to be incorrect and causes damage, what now? It is probably best for the player with the 'hesitation' announces to the table something like, 'sorry, I dropped my mouse' before playing a card.
    In face to face bridge if a player drops a card on the floor and pauses to pick it up, there is no claim of a hesitation. It should not be different for online bridge, but a player would need to let the others know.
    If a 'hesitation' happens and nothing is said, then one would need to rule in favour of the declarer where a reasonable infrerence was drawn and a non-gambling action was taken.

    It also highlights that it is probably a good idea to randomise your tempo during bidding/play
  • @Martin said:
    It also highlights that it is probably a good idea to randomise your tempo during bidding/play

    I would recommend trying to keep to a steady tempo.

    Barrie Partridge - CTD for Bridge Club Live

  • From the BCL web site:

    "In the past, we have had to be cautious about interpreting delays as hesitations as the nature of the Internet often gave cause for unintended delays. Nowadays the Internet is usually far more stable and more and more players have good connections.

    A hesitation is also called a break in tempo, and this is a more accurate description. It is when the steady flow of bids or card plays stalls because of thinking or distraction. Very occasionally a break in tempo can be an excessively fast bid or play.

    As a matter of fairness, it is recommended that if you find you are delaying the table, is to type "Sorry for delay" or “brb” if it's due to a domestic distraction, and "thinking" if that is what you are doing. If you have a poor connection, type "bad ping" (or similar) to indicate that this is the reason for delays at your end.

    That way, the other players can be informed if a delay at your end is not due to you thinking, and this means that a lack of explanation, by default, indicates that you had something to think about.

    If you have only one card left to play in a suit that has been led, or if you have no bridge reason to think about what card to play, but you have found that have not followed suit in a steady tempo, then it is important to say “sorry, distracted” before playing so that opponents will not be misled by your delay."

    Barrie Partridge - CTD for Bridge Club Live

  • There is a face-to-face equivalent of what Barrie posted from BCL. I've occasionally caught myself daydreaming on the first round of bidding and not realised that the bidding has come around to me. I might then pull out the pass card and accompany it with, "Sorry, nothing to think about".

  • @Senior_Kibitzer said:

    @Martin said:
    It also highlights that it is probably a good idea to randomise your tempo during bidding/play

    I would recommend trying to keep to a steady tempo.

    If you make a call/play every time in 1 to 5 seconds, then that becomes your regular tempo? That variation is only slight and under normal circumstances you can think and bid/play within that time frame - except perhaps when you have something really complicated to think about.

    What I think happens, is that in real-life, as declarer we might make a play and then watch for any 'tells' from the defenders as to what they may have. Online, those tells are not possible and we can become overly sensitive to timing and I am not sure that this is appropriate for many reasons.

    Put it this way, I play a lot online and I teach online too, using Zoom and BBO, and I have played using RealBridge. There are times when someone will say, "your turn" and that person will say "no, it is your turn" or "I have already bid", but the system for other people shows differently. There will be lag somewhere on the bridge system or possibly their internet connection.
    In another instance, I was helping one of our members play for the 1st time online (he is a technophobe) and it would varyingly take him anywhere from 1 second to 10 seconds to play a card - depending on where the pointer was showing. If the pointer happened to be pointing at the card he wanted - click and it is played. If he had to move the pointer, it could take 10 seconds to move the pointer to the correct part of the screen and click.
    So, not only are there internet/server lags that can contribute to an apparent break of tempo, peoples computer skills are also a factor.

    Some sort of communication to the table would be good, however. Perhaps not for every bid, but at the start of the round - 'I'm having internet issues, so there may be some delays' or 'I am new to this and struggling to use the computer, it might take me a while to click bids and cards' would all help.

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