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Updated advice about social distancing

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  • If you wanted to play with real cards a possibility would be to run a barometer duplicate game with every table having a complete set of boards. Obviously you would have to have many sets of boards but with fewer tables in operation maybe this is a possibility. Perhaps the cards could be made up at least 72 hours in advance so that any virus would not survive.

    I have also heard of organisations using UV light to sanitise equipment. This could be used for cards and card holders. I have no idea if this is really effective, though.
  • The other way to avoid touching the same cards as anyone else is for everyone to have their own pack of cards and make up the current hand from a list of hands provided to each player.

    When I enquired about UV light I was told that the levels required made it unsafe and impractical for sanitising cards.

  • edited July 2020
    Can you let us know what happened when you ran this event at Harrogate Bridge club?
  • @TonyStaw said:
    Can you let us know what happened when you ran this event at Harrogate Bridge club?

    Is this posted in the wrong place? Who are you asking?

  • I'm sure I saw something on here, but maybe it was on a BBO forum about a club in France opening and a club in the UK opening either this week or next, but now I can't find it? Perhaps TonyStaw saw the same?

  • It is on this forum posted on 19th July by Usually Dummy I also heard about a club in France but not aware where that came from

  • edited July 2020

    I have heard back from Harrogate Bridge Club - as originally mentioned at the bottom of page 1 of this thread.

    The session on Tuesday afternoon apparently wasn't particularly well attended. Members played on BBO with iPads/tablets/laptops - no cards or bidding boxes. Each East-West chair was wiped after every move. Chairs were intentionally set back extra distance from the table but members instinctively all pulled them close into the tables as they sat down. (Perhaps larger tables are needed!) Social distancing adherence proved difficult.

    Most members weren't keen on wearing face masks for three hours and many don't nomally use computers/tablets for prolonged periods of time - so they found concentrating on a screen was harder than normal bridge. There were set-up stresses for the organisers introducing several members to BBO for the first time plus getting them logged in to the club WiFi.

    It sounds like the experiment had mixed results and they are not going to try again for a while.

  • Perhaps larger tables are needed!

    Or a cross formation with five tables!

  • I have followed some of the discussion and Bath BC are preparing their start up plan and risk assessment. Our basic safe environment is reduced tables to 8 and make them larger double size tables no cloths. This gives us 1m+ distancing.

    Simple 4 board Mitchell movements. Key point is we are proposing to have one set of boards per table so only one player will ever touch a hand. Club steward will be busy but there will be no refreshment. Any card contamination would have died in 72 hours before they are used the following week.

    Players will be asked to buy their own bidding box.

    Cashless table money and pre booked sessions. Are considering robots if we have a no show. Intend to restart with 3 sessions per week.

    Trevor BathBC

  • A question: is the group aware of any UK club that has or has decided to restart club play?

  • Trevor - Rugby Village Bridge Club has done a couple of (small numbers) sessions in the style you are describing.

  • edited September 2020

    In response to the post on the EBU webpage this morning, I wanted to highlight that social clubs can continue to operate in the same way as before, and that the 6 people limit does not apply in this setting. This is confirmed at the updated webpage here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-for-the-safe-use-of-multi-purpose-community-facilities/covid-19-guidance-for-the-safe-use-of-multi-purpose-community-facilities.

    It remains the case that the EBU should not recommend a return to face-to-face bridge, but existing trials do follow the new guidance and don't (unless I'm misreading something) need to stop.

    I appreciate that no-one wants to inadvertently fail to follow the rules. I did also however want to note that youth face-to-face bridge activities, with suitable precautions, is explicitly permitted in the new guidance.

    The rules on having only 2 households in the same house at any one time have also been relaxed, so any group of 4 wishing to play face-to-face bridge in their own home with screens etc. is now permitted, whereas that was only possible in up to 2 households previously. Again I'm not recommending it but just highlighting that it's not all bad news for the return of face-to-face bridge.

  • Gloves, masks, screens and large tables may be Ok.

    However, I personally don't know any bridge players (of a certain age) that like too much ventilation (opem windows and doors). Most clubs could "fall down" on this. Also keeping things sensible will be worse than herding cats. X likes dummy in the middle of the table, they can see the cards then "Move the screens please!". "Can I look at your hand" "But we've passed the boards on already". "Sorry Y I can't hear what you are saying, I'll come round".
    Good luck with that.
    "Throat"

  • @495670 said:
    In response to the post on the EBU webpage this morning, I wanted to highlight that social clubs can continue to operate in the same way as before, and that the 6 people limit does not apply in this setting. This is confirmed at the updated webpage here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-for-the-safe-use-of-multi-purpose-community-facilities/covid-19-guidance-for-the-safe-use-of-multi-purpose-community-facilities.

    It remains the case that the EBU should not recommend a return to face-to-face bridge, but existing trials do follow the new guidance and don't (unless I'm misreading something) need to stop.

    I appreciate that no-one wants to inadvertently fail to follow the rules. I did also however want to note that youth face-to-face bridge activities, with suitable precautions, is explicitly permitted in the new guidance.

    The rules on having only 2 households in the same house at any one time have also been relaxed, so any group of 4 wishing to play face-to-face bridge in their own home with screens etc. is now permitted, whereas that was only possible in up to 2 households previously. Again I'm not recommending it but just highlighting that it's not all bad news for the return of face-to-face bridge.

    I can't see how a normal duplicate movement of 3 or more tables can fit within the guidance quoted above, Playing a teams match (or several) - without a director - seems OK, not much more. Stay Safe!.

    "From 14 September, whether indoors or outdoors people from different households must not meet in groups of more than 6. This limit does not apply to meetings of a single household group or support bubble which is more than 6 people. Community facilities following COVID-19 secure guidelines can host more than 6 people in total, but no one should visit or socialise in a group of greater than 6. Further information on social contact rules, social distancing and the exemptions that exist can be found on the guidance on meeting with others safely. These rules will not apply to workplaces or education settings, alongside other exemptions. See more details on what has changed.

  • In August and early September there has been a sharp rise in COVID-19 cases. Overall case levels remain low. Hospitalisations have continued to fall. Death rates are low.

    The government has issued new rules making it clear that no more than six people can gather in social/domestic situations.

    Since July bridge has been conducted under the different guidelines for community facilities:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-for-the-safe-use-of-multi-purpose-community-facilities/covid-19-guidance-for-the-safe-use-of-multi-purpose-community-facilities

    The updated version bans all events for more than 30 people however it clearly states:

    "Community facilities following COVID-19 secure guidelines can host more than 6 people in total,"

    On the 10th Sept the EBU posted the following on its home page, and sent an email to all clubs containing the following:

    "The government has just announced that starting on Monday 14th September, social gatherings of more than six people will be illegal in England. Although there will be some exceptions to this, none seem to cover the situation of any bridge clubs.

    This removes any doubt there may have been in our earlier advice to clubs about whether clubs can run any face-to-face games, and makes clear that this will not be possible until such time as further changes or clarifications to the rules may be announced."

    This information is wrong. Any club that has made the decision to cancel an event on the basis of this wrong information should claim their lost revenue back from the EBU.

    Of course most clubs are not open, and many may never open again, but it is legal to be open at present providing the COVID-19 secure guidelines are followed.

  • @NickyB said:
    This information is wrong. Any club that has made the decision to cancel an event on the basis of this wrong information should claim their lost revenue back from the EBU.

    Of course most clubs are not open, and many may never open again, but it is legal to be open at present providing the COVID-19 secure guidelines are followed.

    You seem pretty confident, Nicky, but unless you've had some additional legal advice I don't think it's remotely that clear. You missed out the rest of the sentence in your quote, which pg above did highlight:

    Community facilities following COVID-19 secure guidelines can host more than 6 people in total, but no one should visit or socialise in a group of greater than 6.

    That could certainly imply that you can play bridge at your table of 4, but you could never move to another table without breaking the rules.

    Then this document gives a list of the exceptions to the 6-max rule, and I'm not sure that bridge fits any of them.

    So I really don't think you should be giving legal advice about this on these forums, and frankly it's pretty shameful that you're seemingly encouraging clubs to sue the EBU.

    Michael

  • What Nicky fails to quote from the same document is:

    • Community facilities following COVID-19 secure guidelines can host more than 6 people in total, but no one should visit or socialise in a group of greater than 6.
    • If partaking in permitted activities users of COVID-19 secure community facilities should limit their social interactions with anyone they do not live with. Whilst activities may have 6 or more people participating (where it is safe to do so and capacity permits) it is important for all parties to maintain socially distant, 2 metres or 1 metre with actions taken to reduce the risk of transmission (where 2 metres is not viable) between households.

    I find it hard to see how any duplicate bridge game could satisfy this (other than perhaps a teams match without changes of opponents), even in the unlikely case that the club has tables large enough to keep all players 1m away from their opponents, in addition to further mitigations.

    But as we said, we’ll be keeping an eye on this and update our information as any changes or new interpretations are announced.

  • Interestingly, I had an email from Badminton England this morning as they have been in communication with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and Sport England - this is saying that a return to competitive badminton is still possible - where teams of 6 compete against another team of 6. This involves each pair playing against each other pair in (normally) best of 3 game events...

    They can also have coaches working with up to 15 people!

    I have attached a PDF print out of the details they have sent, for ease of reference...

    I found it quite surprising and interesting. It may be worth the EBU getting in direct contact with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and Sport England, for more bespoke and specific advice about bridge, if not already done?

  • We have updated our information to take account of two new Government documents published today.

  • I am not convinced that some sort of bridge face to face cant take place. Here is my idea...

    You can have more than 6 people in one location, but there can be no mixing between groups... so if you have 4 people on one table and 4 on another etc, with no movements, then this would be compliant.

    Imagine if 8 people went to a pub, 4 to a table. They play 20 boards with no movement and score as teams, just without swapping 1/2 way. This would be fine.

    It is the same in the bridge club but scoring is easier via a bridge tabs... here is the relevant link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

    Point 3.19 Can I go to my hobby club / amateur musical group / other leisure activity?

    It is against the law to gather in groups of more than six, where people are from different households or support bubbles. The rule above does not mean that there cannot be more than six people in any one place. All activities for under 18s are exempt. There can be multiple groups of six people in a place, provided that those groups do not mingle. [my emphasis]

    So, while this is far from ideal, it is possible.

    This is something that we are looking to trial and obviously a risk-assessment will be completed and there will be many systems/rules in place to help mitigate risk (putting 4 tables together to make a big one; limiting numbers; face coverings mandatory; hand sanitiser on entry and on table; no food and drinks only what players bring to the club themselves; duplicated boards deal 3 days prior to allow time for self-cleaning and so that cards are not shared on the night and some other rules too).

  • @Martin said:
    So, while this is far from ideal, it is possible.

    It certainly seems far from ideal and I'm not sure that in a time of increasing restrictions for public health reasons, clubs should be trying to find ways to operate at the edge of the regulations, particularly bearing in mind the COVID-vulnerable status of many of our members, but ultimately clubs do make their own decisions and take responsibility for them.

  • If it is safe enough for 6 people to enter a pub or restaurant for 2 or 3 hours sitting next to each other with no face coverings. Served by people who are serving others, drinking from glasses touched by others etc. Then it has to be safer for a group of 4 to enter a building that has not been entered for 3 days, touch only your cards and no one elses, sit over a 1m apart with face coverings.

    There would also be limited numbers involved, max 16 in our club due to to space taken up by merging 4 tables into 1. Hand sanitiser on entry and on each table. Disinfectant wipes for use in the toilets. Only drinks brought in by players in bottles allowed.

    Obviously there will be some that will not want to attend the club for their own reasons. However, I am aware of many that are wasting what life they have left being isolated for so long that they are itching to get back to the club.

    People over 18 can make up their own minds, people over 70 certainly have enough life experience to decide for themselves. Imagine being given 6 months to live due to terminal cancer and having to isolate for 6 months because of a possible risk of dying from covid. That decision should lie with the adults themselves.

    It is also not operating 'on the edge' of regulations. 6 are allowed and we are looking at 4 people. Plus many additional measures far beyond minimum requirements.

    I have already lost one bridge playing friend a few weeks into lockdown. She was nearly 92 and was totally isolated in a small room for 6/7 weeks before she passed away, from nothing to do with covid. Seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me! Had she been in a position to decide, she would definately had visitors and would have loved to get to the club again.

    People can make up their own minds for me. The regulations are there and if we operate within them, I cant see an issue.
  • Martin - I agree with you that there are many people who want to get back to club playing, but when we explained to our club members exactly what was involved they lost interest quickly. They want to get back to the club as they know it.
    There is nothing under the current rules that prevents 4 people meeting in someone's house and having a social game or even a competitive game online using tablets.
    Sadly I think that is going to be the only way people can play F2F until the "Rule of 6" is lifted.
    I haven't tried it myself, but I believe RealBridge is a satisfactory alternative which allows you to chat with the oppenents and your partner from the safety of your home.

  • Whilst it is laudable that measures are being to try and accommodate individuals who perhaps are not computer literate and are not able to play on line. I am sure like many I am happy to play in the comfort of my own home and have no desire to mix socially albeit it may be with the rules. As mentioned, Real Bridge appears to be a very good alternative and I am sure that its use will increase. It may be that even when it is possible to re-open bridge clubs normally on-line bridge will continue which will be a great help to those who perhaps have difficulty in getting to the bridge club. It is likely that numbers when face to face bridge is possible attending meetings will be down and consideration of including an on line element may be desirable.

  • Well, I run our virtual club on BBO and whilst we have a regular group playing, it seems to about 6 or 7 tables only.

    So about 24 people are joining us for that and several others are playing just social bridge for free on BBO. So, there are about 35 members or so that are playing some bridge at least online. This leaves about 65 that are not playing at all currently.

    Of those sone will not want to venture out for their own reasons, but I think we can get a groups of 16 out once a week. This means that 50% of the membership will be getting at least some bridge in.

    As it happens, those that would love to come and have not (and will not) play online, are those that are a little older and live on their own. I see this as a big boon for the club to facilitate some kind of return to normality and make life worth living again.

    We are going to run a limited trial as a test run of the new measures, which may result in an amended risk assessment.

    I will let everyone know how we get on :)
  • It'll be interesting to see how well those who want to get back to live bridge for the social aspect are willing to follow the required restrictions that effectively remove that social aspect. If they want to see their friends, will they be happy to only be playing against two of them while the others are at an unsociable distance?

  • I think that when you have been isolated for so long, just being in a room with other people can have a big and positive impact on wellbeing. I am fortunate enough to be married, so I get lots of conversation at home - those that are alone are going stir crazy.

    Being able to socialise with 3 other people directly and others within the local vicinity and others more indirectly is something that will give people something to look forward to. Even those that remain isolating will be able to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

    I have been trying to attach a picture that I have seen from another club that shows how I envisage it working, but it keep failing. I will try again via IE

  • Maybe there is an upload issue with the forum? I cannot manage to upload the image in Chrome or IE. I have tried it as JPG, GIF and PNG, with file sizes from 45KB to 577KB, so they are very small.

    Just as a thought, I printed the image to PDF and it uploaded fine...

  • Sorry Martin if that is how you and someone else envisages playing bridge F2F then count me out. I will stick with BBO; BCL Stepbridge and Realbridge when it comes out. Can see all sorts of problems with the set-up shown.

    "Throat"

  • Hey CMOT_Dibbler - it is also not how I would want to play bridge (also, you were not invited :P). I will also continue playing bridge online - both in free robot tournaments and challenges plus in my club's and counties virtual clubs on BBO.

    I wont let that stop those that cannot/will not play online from meeting at the club for a bit of face-to-face cards and socialising.

    If you can see problems with the setup, please let me know what issues you envisage and we can look to counter those.

    I should point out that the purpose of the image was to show the table lay out (4 tables put together) and will not be exactly how the club will organise (the space between tables will be considerably larger).

    • We will put 4 tables together to make up a 'super-table' to maintain distancing
    • Hand sanitiser at the entrance and on the tables
    • Anti-viral/bacterial wipes for the toilets so that people can self-clean any touched surfaces/taps/handles etc as they enter/leave
    • Wearing face masks and/or visors required at all times while in the building
    • Duplicated boards will be dealt 3 days prior to playing, to allow 72 hours for the cards to self-clean so there will be now sharing of cards
    • The teams will be organised prior to the event, so that no-intermingling will be needed between the groups of 4 playing on a table and there will be no bridge movements
    • No food and drink from the club, but players can bring in their own bottled drinks if they like

    If this looks too problematic for you in terms of safety then I assume that you have not been to the shops, a pub or restaurant, used public transport, a garden centre etc? With this setup, it will be much safer than say 4 people going to a coffee shop or pub and play rubber bridge.

    If you mean problematic in terms of playing bridge, then the only issue I can envisage without actually trying it, is the distance to see cards and bid for some of our less well sighted members.

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