Swiss Pairs

We have a large (45-50 tables) Swiss Pairs played over three days. After close of play on the second day the field is divided into three sections, top ranking 32 pairs, next 32 pairs and the rest, each section playing for separate prizes, with scores from the qualifying rounds carried forward.

My question, using EBU Score (I am new to this system): is it possible to carry forward the names and scores from the ranking list directly on to the three sections, if so how, or does it have to be done manually for each pair?

Grateful for advice.

Comments

  • If you are dividing into three sections and then playing Multiple Pairs, then this would not be possible as the Swiss Pairs and MP Pairs programs are separate.

    However, it is possible to do what you mention above if you are continuing with Swiss Pairs (which I think is what you mean). At the start of the event, you will need to setup 3 sections, with A and B having 16 tables and with C having the remainder - your bridgemates (or other device) will therefore need to have the correct table number inputted. You can then assign across the field for the first two days as normal. For your 1st third day assignment, you will also need to assign across the field, so as to put the qualifying pairs in their correct sections. After that, you should then assign the remaining rounds "within each section" on the Assignments tab, which will ensure that pairs cannot move into a different section. At the end of the event, in the Results tab, you can then create three ranking lists by using the "InSection" filter.

    Hope that helps!

  • @495670 said:
    If you are dividing into three sections and then playing Multiple Pairs, then this would not be possible as the Swiss Pairs and MP Pairs programs are separate.

    However, it is possible to do what you mention above if you are continuing with Swiss Pairs (which I think is what you mean). At the start of the event, you will need to setup 3 sections, with A and B having 16 tables and with C having the remainder - your bridgemates (or other device) will therefore need to have the correct table number inputted. You can then assign across the field for the first two days as normal. For your 1st third day assignment, you will also need to assign across the field, so as to put the qualifying pairs in their correct sections. After that, you should then assign the remaining rounds "within each section" on the Assignments tab, which will ensure that pairs cannot move into a different section. At the end of the event, in the Results tab, you can then create three ranking lists by using the "InSection" filter.

    Hope that helps!

    Thanks v v much.
    Yes, the idea is for each of the three sections to play swiss pairs within the section on day 3.
    You've helped me solve the problem.

  • One thing to note is that you can score across the field or within sections, but you can't change this setting during an event. So I think you should score within sections because that is what you would need to happen during the final, most important, session.

  • edited October 3

    I've just tested this out and it looks like you can change this setting during the event - I'm using version 1.1.9 so it might be that version 1.2 doesn't have this functionality at the moment (or I might just be testing it wrong!). I suppose the best bet though would be to test it out with your specific arrangements to see how it might work, and to follow the "within sections" advice as above if you're unsure.

    In theory, you could set up each match as a separate "session" for the first two days, and then put all of the matches on day 3 in the same session. That way, scoring "within sections" throughout would effectively be the same as scoring across the field on days 1 and 2 anyway. As I say though, switching settings does appear to work on the version I'm using.

  • I'll see if Robin can throw any light on this, because we would have liked to have done it at Eastbourne but couldn't.

  • edited October 3

    While you can change it (at least in v1.1.x), you really don't want to do so.

    It will mess up your event because EBUScore will re-evaluate previous match scores based on the current setting.

    You can see this by producing a ranking at the end of session 1 with "matchpoint within sections" turned off; turn it on, and redo the same ranking list, and it will change!

  • @SteveFoster said:
    While you can change it (at least in v1.1.x), you really don't want to do so.

    It will mess up your event because EBUScore will re-evaluate previous match scores based on the current setting.

    You can see this by producing a ranking at the end of session 1 with "matchpoint within sections" turned off; turn it on, and redo the same ranking list, and it will change!

    Ah that's the reason, I remember now! Thanks Steve.

  • @495670 said:
    In theory, you could set up each match as a separate "session" for the first two days, and then put all of the matches on day 3 in the same session. That way, scoring "within sections" throughout would effectively be the same as scoring across the field on days 1 and 2 anyway. As I say though, switching settings does appear to work on the version I'm using.

    Eh? That doesn't sound right (at least, while you could do that, I don't think it does produce the effect you're suggesting).

  • edited October 3

    Ok, there is a way to score "by section" and "across the field" at the same time, but it's horribly kludgy (and rather disconcerting unless you're really, really, comfortable with EBUScore).

    WARNING: Those of a nervous disposition or not seriously EBUScore-literate should not read further!

    Create the event with one section, 3 sessions, and configure it to "matchpoint in sections". Run sessions 1 and 2. Run off all the reports you want (ranking, match scores, P2P, etc.). Delete the Multi event (yes, really, though I'd recommend making a backup of the DAT files first).

    Create another identical event, only with 3 sections, and 3 sessions, configure it to "matchpoint in sections". Manually edit the individual constituent events for B1, B2, C1 and C2 to have zero tables. Delete the Multi event.

    Select all of the original constituent A1 and A2 events and the new constituent A3, B1, B2, B3, C1, C2, and C3 events, and do "Combine Sessions" (after making sure the total number of tables across sessions is consistent). You will have some unused "orphan" constituent events left over that can be deleted later (the "single-field" jumbo A3, and the "multi-section" small A1, A2 "pieces").

    Retrieve the new Multi, go to Assignments. It will say that it's waiting for round 1 assignments, but if you pick Round 1 in the round dropdown at the top left, they will be there. Click "Set Manual Assignments" and confirm. Repeat for all the rounds from sessions 1 and 2. This gets the new multi to recognise that it has all the S1 and S2 data already and bring it up to date.

    Run off reports and cross-check against the ones you made earlier, and they should match (they do in my tests, albeit there are now some empty B and C bits). Now you can do the initial "across the field" assignment for the first round of session 3, and proceed normally for the final session (doing subsequent assignments "within sections").

    Note that EBUScore will now throw some worrisome-looking errors if you go into "Scores" (and probably some other places), as it doesn't like having zero tables in a section, but it doesn't fall over or anything serious (that I could quickly find).

    CAUTION: All of the above was simulated today with EBUScore v1.1.8 and BMTest v3.1.12. I have not tried it with EBUScore v1.2.x. Practice thoroughly before trying to do this for real!

    PS I did experiment with just altering the section sizes in advance, but EBUScore was unable to do assignments for rounds with empty sections (it just complained, and refused). And I think that manually assigning for all of S1 and S2 is not a practical option (I did do R1 just to confirm that it could be done manually).

  • Ah yes, you're quite right (thanks for spotting that!).

    Just a thought regarding Eastbourne - I don't suppose adjusting all of the "early session" by an artificial 100 VPs would work? That would hopefully mean that all assignments occur within the same section, while still matchpointing across the same field. That admittedly might not work depending on the time at which you assign each section (and there is a risk of an assignment across sections if pairs have already played each other). Of course, with the new proposed timing, this will no longer be an issue.

  • What Steve said: you can change a scoring setting but it re-scores the already completed rounds/sessions using the new setting.

  • @gordonrainsford said:
    One thing to note is that you can score across the field or within sections, but you can't change this setting during an event. So I think you should score within sections because that is what you would need to happen during the final, most important, session.

    If one scores within sections on days 1 and 2, can the assignments still be done across the field for these two days?

  • @Vlad said:

    @gordonrainsford said:
    One thing to note is that you can score across the field or within sections, but you can't change this setting during an event. So I think you should score within sections because that is what you would need to happen during the final, most important, session.

    If one scores within sections on days 1 and 2, can the assignments still be done across the field for these two days?

    Yes, at the start of a new session. During a session, assignments are only done within sections.

  • @gordonrainsford said:

    @Vlad said:
    If one scores within sections on days 1 and 2, can the assignments still be done across the field for these two days?

    Yes, at the start of a new session. During a session, assignments are only done within sections.

    That is the default, but if you need or want to, you can choose to assign across the field in any round (the reverse is not true - it won't let you assign within sections for the first round of a new session).

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